To Tithe or Not To Tithe…

Net…and off tax refund…
Give radically far and above – I think we should all aim for living on 10% – giving 90%! Not there yet…

the is a twitter?? I am so behind the times…

Gross, at the very least.
– remember, you can’t outgive God, but you can try!
– I attempt to live on less, so that I can give more (time, talent & treasure).

It’s always been said do you want “gross” blessings or “net” blessings… For me it is definitely gross blessings!

I’m a gross man myself!

Gross. (I first typed “grass”…what?)

So far your answers are all gross and unbiblical.

First, OT tithes were not the minimum starting point of giving except for farmers and herdsmen who lived inside Israel. Craftsmen and tradesmen were only required to give freewill offerings.

Second, although money was expected for meny offerings it was never included in any biblical description of tithes. That is from 16 of l6 texts covering 1500 years from Leviticus to Malachi to Matthew.

Third, NT giving principles of grace and faith are freewill, generous and sacrificial. There is no percentage. Those who argue gross or net are playing games with the truth.

Fourth, God never gave the law of Moses or tithes to the church. 2 Cor 3:10 says that system has zero glory unless blessed by the Holy Spirit and tithing does not come with a Spirit blessing after Calvary.

http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com

S-DUB! Did you read my blog yesterday? Yours today sounds eerily similar to mine. Hahaha!

I guess for me, the real question isn’t “gross” or “net” or “do” or “do not.” The real question is “How BIG is your God? How MUCH has He shown His love for YOU? In light of both questions, your answers should dictate your response – both in giving and serving.

I DO NOT agree with Russ’ comments above. Christ made it clear in Matthew 5:17-20 God values obediance to His commandments – including the tithe. I DO agree that the tithe should not be limited to 10% only, but should also include sacrificial gifts – the kind that hurts and requires great faith to give. However, 10% IS the standard and we should be careful to teach others otherwise (Matt. 5:19)!

scoot, kyle and others here are some laws from Leviticus which you can find in the Old Testament it’s the first part of the book you are refrencing. I think you guys should get busy reading not just listening.

Don’t let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Don’t have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don’t wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don’t cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9) Have you ever done that?

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10).

If a man sleeps with his father’s wife… both him and his father’s wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)

If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)

If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16).

If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be “cut off from their people” (Leviticus 20:18)

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)

If a priest’s daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

Romans 6:14. In this passage, Paul is specifically discussing the process of sanctification in the Christian life. After all, those who have been buried with Christ (vv. 1-10) are also dead to sin (vv. 11-23). Verse 14, then, contends that sanctification cannot come from following the Mosaic Law, but rather by grace through Christ. The fact that Paul is speaking of the Mosaic Law in verse 14 is evidenced in 7:4-7. Rather than basing progressive sanctification on the deeds of the Law, Paul stressed that believers are not under the Law. For him the Law was not a means of sanctification any more than it was a means of justification.

Kyle – why do you think many Jewish rabbi’s teach the tithe is not in effect until the temple is restored and only then is it to be given to Levite priests?

Whoops there I go again asking a question!

Gross is good, more is better. Oh yea, I am a big fan of a little something called “your tithe goes to YOUR church where you are getting fed”. It concerns me when people say they give their tithe to a tv personality or some other para-church organization!!!

Nice topic Scott. You just can’t help it can you? Me neither. (grin)
Hey, what if the rule was, no tithing in cash, just in kind…what would that tithe look like?

I know you said it first, but you didn’t say it like that. (grin)

any one [sic] who pays to a minister the biblical tithe is a sinner in the eyes of God.

That may be the greatest thing I’ve ever read.

Dang.

Years ago, I changed from paying tithe on net to gross. I looked at it this way. Do I receive a benefit from my taxes? I have a road to drive on to get to work. I can send my kids to school for free. (even tho I choose not to) I have a military to protect my freedom.

I guess the point is that even though I don’t always agree with how it is spent, Uncle Sam does give me a benefit from what I pay him; therefore, gross is where I fall in this argument.

WOW! TOO MUCH TENSION!

Hey here’s another idea that is relevant, and also teaches people to give…

Since today most churches are taking their cue from the world, how about you guys host a church sponsored type of “Oprah’s Big give”… and example giving… heck you could probably even write it off at the end of the year as a further exemption and knock it out in one shot…

I also know of this fairly high rated show called “Extreme home makeover” or something like that, where they pick really needy and wounded people and build em a house… (I bet they didn’t have much trouble getting people to give to that cause”… all it would probably cost the church is a shameless plug here or ther for some of the people giving…but it is great marketing and priming the pump for giving…

I remember going to a nice lady’s house once when I wnet to Life Church seven years ago, (Cheryl, wow has it been that long) and evaluating costs for improvements for her house to help fulfill a promise when her husband had passed… people came out of the woodworks to give, not to mention while I was there she was giving stuff to me, boy that was humbling… (thanks for the can of coffee, you’ll never know how that act humbled me)…

Anywho… maybe Scott can get a few more hits on this thread, and make everyone feel bad for not giving gross income… gee thanks Scott…;)

I think there have been some great posts about this sensitive issue. As a Stewardship pastor, I always taught about the tithe, and found out that there were so many different questions and opinions on it. Many people do not understand that the word tithe is a unit of measurement and means literally “one tenth.” I would hear people say they were “tithing” 12%, which showed their misunderstanding.

I like what Andy Stanley has done at his church, rather than using the word tithe, he challenges people to become percentage givers, and also mentions that the Bible had a good starting point of 10%. I like this thinking because so many people get caught up with the tithe, they forget that it is just a starting point, and should increase as our ability to give increases.

Finally, I have to comment on Avery’s post from the 18th where he says “Since today most churches are taking their cue from the world, how about you guys host a church sponsored type of “Oprah’s Big give”.” Oprah took her cue on this idea from the Church, specifically Coast Hills Community Church in Aliso Viejo California. Pastor Denny Bellesi and his wife Leesa came up with a Kingdom Assignment that shocked their congregation, and was the basis of Oprah’s idea. Oprah had the couple on her show in 2003 and profiled their book.

As a pastor, there are two things I have never done. I never presented this “new teaching” – as “the tithe,” and I never laid this man-made concoction on the brethren – claiming God requires 10% of one’s gross earnings to go in cash to the local church for life. What I have taught is: “If anyone does not provide for his own, and especially those of his own household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever” (1Tim 5:8) and “Owe nothing to anyone” (Ro 13:8). Those calling for this “tithe” are doing so – claiming God’s authority behind their message and often warn of consequences for “robbing God.” One definition of extortion is “to get (money, etc.) by violence, threats, misuse of authority …” (Webster’s New World Dictionary, 1974). This “new teaching” is extortion.

By the way, I have a short “Tithe Test” on my website and at the beginning of my ebook “No Tithe for the Christian”. If one takes it, (maybe 3 minutes) and then grades himself/herself – ones knowledge level on this subject will be immediately apparent.

I’am your fan

Net, gross, before taxes, after taxes, 10%, more, are we robbing God?,…

First, I will say I believe in the tithe but not in the Malachi 3:8-9 usage as leveraged by many churches. I’ll elaborate later. I will say now, I believe any pastor invoking Mal 3:8-9 is shamefully in the wrong and borders on extortion.

“Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions. You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you.” (Mal 3:8-9 ESV)

During the late first century and early second century, before Roman Catholicism, the Jewish-Christian church held the following view:

“Blessed is he that giveth according to the commandment;
for he is guiltless.
Woe to him that receiveth;
for, if a man receiveth having need, he is guiltless;
but he that hath no need shall give an account why and wherefore he received;
and being put in confinement he shall be examined concerning the deeds that he hath done, and {he shall not come out thence until he hath given back the last penny.}
Yea, as touching this also it is said;
{Let thine offering sweat into thine hands, until thou shalt have learnt to whom to give.}”

What commandment? There is no explicit New Covenant commandments regarding giving other than give gladly to him who has a need. Maybe the view was honor the Old Testament command? That could be true for the Jewish-Christians, but what about gentiles? We are gentiles.

The Jerusalem Council ruled gentiles coming into the faith were to adhere to four regulations — do not eat meat sacrificed to idols, do not meat from animals strangled, abstain from blood, abstain from sexual immorality.

Notice tithing is not in the list.

Why did I say “extortion” above? Notice the usage of “the whole nation of you” in Mal 3:9c. This announcement was given to a specific people (Hebrews), of a specific nation (Israel), under obligation to a specific covenant (Mosaic), for which they violated. Of course they were robbing God!

Does the same pastor who invokes Mal 3:8-9 also condemn eating rare steak or tattoos or body piercing? If not, I rest my case.

As I said above, I believe in tithing and more. We are given Abraham’s example. Moreover, since everything belongs to God and God channels provision for the needy through the hands of people, we engage in a form of embezzlement when we keep more than we need to ourselves.

Everything more than we need is to be given to those in need.

Scott,

My above post is directed toward those who quote as New Covenant principle…

?Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. Mathew 23:23

Your opinion: “Notice Jesus said, “You should have practiced the latter (justice, mercy and faithfulness), without neglect the former (tithing).” Since Jesus said not to neglect the former, that being tithing… I believe it’s black and white”

What should be “black & white” and may not be some is this, although above is recorded in the New Testament, it is Old Covenant. The new Covenant had not yet been ratified by the blood of the Lamb.

Have you ever noticed that under the Law, gold & silver (money) was never mentioned in tithe?

Pastor’s knowingly & willfully using Mal 3:8-9 to increase church revenue streams reminds of Roman’s use of selling access to relics & indulgences.

Gross – definitely. Here’s a thought on tax refund. Not saying right or wrong – just a thought. When you tithe on gross, you tithed on taxes withheld. Your refund is a fraction of what has been withheld. It seems that tithing on tax refund would actually be offering above and beyond tithe. Simply because you have already paid tithes on taxes withheld. Just a thought. You can never give too much to God!

Expand your faith!!!

How much do you want God to bless? Do you want Him to bless all of it or only some of it?

I have thoroughly enjoyed this post. If not for the question I would not have run into some other great websites. I will say that I don’t think people expressing their preference of tithing or not tithing is arguing over an issue, it’s just answering the blog post question.

I personally do not believe in tithing. I believe in the laws of seeding and of giving. I think why so many people are passionately expressing their distaste for the way tithing is presented in a lot of modern day churches is because they are not fortunate enough to have a church that actually collects and distribute tithe according to the text in which they invoke. Very little taking care of the poor, or widows, or distributing amongst those in need right there in the church. What we mostly see is tithe being collected for means other than the furthering of the gospel. You can argue that a television spot or new church lighting plays into furthering the gospel, but most of us know better. Also, I have personally heard my own pastor say that if you do not tithe you are not in covenant with God and will not go to heaven. Something is really wrong with the church and I pray we get back to studying in order to present Christ who is the Word in the correct light and not based on this other stuff we have added to God’s word. Remember the warning for those who do add or subtract from the Word?

For most of the gross/netters, the notion of giving to get is really big to them. However whoever gives with the express intention of getting more back in my opinion need a serious character adjustment. This goes against the grain of everything Christ in His selfless sacrifice attempted to teach us. It is not about us! Our money nor our lives are our own and should both be given in service to God and each other. But feel good Christians should also not fail to know God’s Word. He would not want us to be ignorant. As a people grafted in we are in no way under the law, nor as brought out in Charley’s post required to be held to the same law as that of the Jewish nation. As indicated in the New Testament, if you are going to attempt to live under the law you must fulfill all of its obligations; the only one who was able to do so was Christ. If you feel you are up to the challenge, well then by all means knock yourself out.

There was one who stated he wish to err on the side of giving the tithe rather than not giving it. I do not believe you will or will not go to heaven based on this church hang-up, but I would caution that if you are erroneously dividing God’s Word on this issue what else might you be doing that is not of God but of the Religious thought of the day (Pharisaic)?

I think that tithe is a cop out for many lazy saint’s who don’t want to take the time to truly give of their talents and fruits to furthering the kingdom. For some it’s the equivalent for giving $30 to Feed The World organizations in order to ease your conscience when passing by the homeless downtown. Truth is Christ envisioned a Kingdom where nothing belonged to one, but it belongs to all; no one is super wealthy while others are impoverished. It’s the argument for national health care, or welfare, or any other entitlement. Because we all give if we can, but even if we can’t we will all eat, and sleep on a bed, and be free to worship together.

I love God’s Word, in it we are not just sheep, we are also friends of Christ and joint-heirs. We don’t have to just believe what we hear from a pastor, but we can inquire of Christ Himself without a middleman.

Many testify that they paid tithes and I now have a 6 figure salary, for every story like that I can give you one, where someone paid tithes and lived a life in debt and died in debt without anything very significant in the form of worldly riches at all. Tithe is not the key to Kingdom living. If we have that understood then tithe or don’t tithe all you want

I second the praises to SparkWisdom.

I have “tithed” for years. I started with 10% of whatever was written on my paycheck – as well as 10% of every birthday check, Christmas check, wedding or funeral honorarium – and then bumped it up every year after that, trying to increase the percentage (not just the amount) by a little more. God has always been faithful.

It’s not about giving to get. It’s all God’s anyway, right? If your mom bakes you a birthday cake, do you not give her at LEAST one slice from that whole cake as a way of saying thank you? Do you really need to eat that whole cake yourself? Tithing is a thank offering, recognizing God’s gracious bounty extended to you, and recognizing that God always gives us more than we truly “need.”

I tell my congregation that there are tithes, gifts and offerings. If we do not recognize the distinctive natures of each, then we deprive ourselves of some of the blessings of giving. (I don’t claim that these terms are authoritative – other people may use different terms).

Our tithe is our way of saying thank you to God for His gracious abundance towards us. In returning 10% to God – no strings attached (i.e., not designated for a specific purpose) — we are witnessing in a very practical way that God has provided us with more than we need. It is the foundation and the first giving for a Christian, and it is given to the Church, not to a charity, etc.

An offering is what is collected/given in order to contribute towards a need – Katrina evacuees & victims, e.g. This is over and above the tithe, because the motivation and aim is different. We are helping those in need, giving to others out of our abundance just as God does with us.

A gift (just like a birthday or Christmas gift) expresses our personal appreciation for a person or something else. Wealthy people give huge gifts to universities because they appreciate the work those schools do. Someone may give a gift to the youth fellowship for the witness they made over the summer, or to the band or choir for the worship leadership they provided during the revival.

Each of these is a way of stewarding our bounty in a faithful and joyful manner. I think that keeping the distinctions clear in the minds of the congregation goes a long way towards warding off the mentality that would see the weekly offering during worship as the payment of “membership dues.” But apart from the questions above concerning the biblical basis (or not) for tithing – AND apart from the very important, but different, questions of how the pastor asks for money and how the church stewards the money it receives — returning to God 10% (or more) of what He gives you is a very simple, sensible and (I believe) faithful act of thanksgiving for His bounty.

Once everyone understands that the Bible defines the Holy tithe as food grown from inside the Land of Israel,(Lev 27:30 and Numbers chapter 18) and that it was specified for Levites only, then it is a foregone conclusion, no one has God’s authority to change God’s word by redifining the tithe to money. Once I discovered that a tithe was never money I Resigned From the Doctrine of Tithing so I would not be Judged by God for Changing his Word. Now I give according to the teachings of Paul in the New Covenant.
http://blackchristiannews.com/bloggers/2009/12/how-to-resign-by-dr-frank-chase-jr.html

Great information! I’ve been looking for something like this for a while now. Thanks!