Is This What People Think About The Church? If so, it’s sad…

Posted by Scott Williams
21 Comments
August 31, 2009
Controversy | Hmm | Poetry | The Church

hypocritesQuite awhile ago I shared a poem that I had written entitled “I Don’t Want To Go To Your Church.” My intent with the poem was to share some observations and feelings from the perspective of a first time attender in a church environment.  The post was well received for the most part and then out of nowhere I received a lengthy passion-filled comment from a somewhat anonymous person named “Hulk.“  Maybe they decided to go by Hulk because they were angry, muscular or maybe even green; nonetheless their comment is below.

If you want to read the post in it’s entirety and get some perspective on Hulk’s original comment and response to other commenters, you can click here.

Here is Hulk’s response to my post titled: “I Don’t Want To Go To Your Church.”

“What a true post! I relate 100% with that!
I’m really tired of hearing stuff like what rencal said “God does say ‘come as you are,’ however He does not say ’stay where you are at!’”

God accepts and loves where you are at 100% of the time. The problem is that in the walls of the church, in the middle of all the numb, like-minded, judgmental people, you will find that they hurl stuff like ‘He doesn’t say stay where you’re at’.

There’s no compassion or understanding with where people often find themselves stuck! Be honest, life is hard, problems are hard. Problems are not overcome in 5 seconds, they can take years to work through in your life, and sometimes after making progress you still stuff up!

The church needs people to be honest with where they’re at. The church needs to know how to hear honesty without launching the judgement rocket.

The church, as it is, does not know how to live honestly. It takes people who are searching for truth and engulfs them in a culture of talk. A culture of people that are mask wearers and fakers.

Imagine if somebody in “leadership” were to be honest and talk about where they’re at! Do YOU think the church would accept that? If they were truly honest with the problems that plague their life, they would be stood down from leadership.

So instead of embracing truth and honesty, they are locked away in a lonely closet. They want to change, they want to be accepted for who THEY REALLY ARE, but that can’t be found in the church! They are too busy pretending and judging.

Faye, your church is just like that. You may be welcoming (an evangelistic technique), but what about being real? Church by definition is like that. There is no escape. Churches are filled with modern day Pharisees. The Pharisees today just litter their talk with WORDS like, grace, forgiveness, Jesus, acceptance, but it is all based on performance, position and recognition.

I detest this man-made construct. It is hollow. It is the same as any other group out there. There is no difference in your lives; only denial!

God is nothing like this hell-hole we call church. That’s why I don’t go anymore. Tired of the talk. Couldn’t see any walk.”

Is this what people think about The Church?  If so, It’s sad…  I’m not saying that some things aren’t true, it’s just dissapointing and sad!

  • http://www.Twitter.com/marcmillan Marc Millan

    Hulk, if you read this comment, know that I can hear the pain and
    hurt hidden within your expression of chosen words. I’m a believer, son
    of a Pastor( man if integrity), I’ve been equally wounded by those
    outside “the church” AS by some “within the church” This IS the inherit
    flaw of humanity, we are supposed to love but most time hurt each other
    instead. Church should not be a “Hell hole” experience for you and trust me
    you CAN find a place full of regular people trying to reach heaven.
    Reach out to Scott here and I’m sure you will connect and find the 1st steps
    in changing your hurt and perception of “Church”

  • http://www.applestar.org jmarrapodi

    How true.
    Scott, have you read Don Kinneman’s UnChristian? Tells the same story of the church. We need to be more aware of what we ARE supposed to be instead of looking at all of the things we don’t do, and shunning those we’re supposed to love in the name of Jesus.

  • Anita Soler

    I think Hulk makes a valid point. God accepts us 100% of the time. He does not expect us to change ourselves but instead to admit we are NOTHING without Christ and to completely rely on Him to make us who He wants us to be. The old legalism used to be don’t drink, don’t smoke, etc. This alienated people and made them miss the whole point that it is GOOD NEWS! The “new legalism” has no problem with tattoos or jeans on Sunday morning, but God forbid you are a Christ-follower who is slow at “leadership development” or you aren’t “relevant” or you don’t always do your ministries with “excellence”. Some current church leaders will distance themselves from these people faster than an old school preacher would avoid a bowling alley. There is absolutely no regard for the state of the person’s heart and perhaps other difficulties in their life and history that make growth in these areas very challenging.
    This is not right! It alienates people and makes them feel inadequate. Jesus NEVER did that – His words ALWAYS empowered people!

  • http://paravane.wordpress.com jimmy paravane

    Do you ever wonder why Jesus expressed doubt in the Garden of Gethsemane? Here was God, in all His humanity pleading His doubt to the Father. Then He went on to obey anyway. A better example of how powerless you people can be made by the simple desire for something like the “prosperity movement” can’t be found. Anything but sin? How about any answer but no? How about any vision but obey?

  • http://castingthenet.net pastorheathj85

    Scott (and Hulk),

    This just confirms to me what my wife and I are doing in Enid, Oklahoma. We moved from Norman after attending the South OKC Campus of LifeChurch.tv. My experience at LifeChurch.tv was life-changing. Even though I am a licensed International Pentecostal Holiness Church minister, I experienced God, and people, on a personal level while attending LifeChurch.tv for those three months.

    Now, we are here in Enid to re-open a church that has been closed for at least five years and try to be an alternative, relational church to people like Hulk.

    Why make such a move? Because both my wife and I grew up in churches (myself being a pastor’s son), like Hulk describes, with “no compassion” and rejected by the very people that were supposedly our church families. I saw the shameful actions of the church: judging and rejecting other people because they didn’t “change” and become more like “them” quick enough.

    I even experienced rejection myself as I wanted to enter the ministry at the age of 18 after marrying young. Everyone looked down upon me and it didn’t seem that anyone regarded me as a fellow minister, even after receiving a minister’s license at the age of 21.

    Now at 24, sadly I still see the Church, as a majority, emotionally rejecting or at least condemning people because they don’t fit the “church-mold”. They are too rough for their precious gathering. They don’t fit their definition of holiness. All I see is a religious institution that gathers on Sunday in a building and call themselves Christian trying to live by the law and during the week failing to show the love of Christ to others.

    It seems to society that the Church calls itself “holy” by our exclusive, judgemental, and hypocritical actions. What is holiness? My definition is simply the attitude of my heart towards my relationship with God. That’s it. I try to judge my actions to make sure that nothing I do would offend God nor the stranger I meet in town.

    So how does one minister or witness? By following Christ’s example: build a relationship first with love and acceptance, then meet a need.

    Hulk, I apologize to you for our actions. I’m tired of seeing this kind of negative emotions tied to my loving Savior and His bride. I want to see a “New Testament” Church: one that is relational and truly Christ-like. One that would bring honor to His name, not shame. One that, like Jesus, gives love and acceptance.

    I agreed with Christine Caine this past Sunday. It’s time I stopped doing Church and started being the Church. I’m going to Cast My Net For Christ!

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  • Hulk

    Marc, I am sure that you’ve been hurt, judged and not loved outside the church. That’s to be expected.

    What I don’t get is why you receive this from people who reckon they’re filled with god’s spirit, god’s ‘love’. It makes no sense.

    Now that I am an outsider I can’t tell the difference between ‘spirit filled’ people and unbelievers. The main difference is that one group is religious and uses a lot of religious talk and the others don’t.

    My mask slipped and I couldn’t put it on again. Everyone in the church saw me for who I was. I was ashamed, confused, in so much pain. I needed forgiveness, understanding, compassion. I wished that the 99 were left so that I could be found.

    After 31 years in church not 1 ‘spirit filled’ Christian sought me out. It is unbelievable but true.

    Instead the unbelievers around me, a heretic, an atheist, agnostics gathered around me. Brushed me off, helped me gain my footing, became my friends. They accepted me where I was at and spoke about their similar experiences.

    Why was there this discrepancy?!

    It makes no sense!

    It’s been 5 years now. I can’t go back to church. It appears that these people are so caught up in religion that they have lost touch with God. I don’t believe that going to church, prayer meetings, music practice, Sunday church, sermons, fellowship, bible study makes any difference to those that do it. It’s just religious routine. It brings comfort and helps you turn your mind off.

    I really want Christ. I really want him to hold me, but 31 years in a system that rewards performance, striving and recognition has totally confused me. I struggle trying to understand grace as a result. That’s because church and it’s constituents are not real.

    How can your culture know and express grace and forgiveness when you spend your life wearing masks and pretending?

  • http://castingthenet.net pastorheathj85

    Hulk,

    I believe that’s the point. The Church has failed to show God’s love. There’s a new generation of Christ-followers that have recognized that the Church has dropped the ball and been more concerned with their concept of holiness and not with the relational aspect of being a “Christian” and how that ties into a relationship with God.

    As you stated, you really want Christ to hold you. This desire is not mistaken. The grace and forgiveness that He offers is real, not fake hiding behind a mask.

    This new generation of Christ-followers desire to be “UnChristian” as David Kinnamon and Gabe Lyons express in their book by same title. The Church has been misrepresenting Christ.

    It is my prayer that you experience the true love and acceptance of Jesus Christ and find those who have experienced the same who are not hung up on centuries of mistaken identity. It is also my prayer that I take off any mask that may be misleading and let my true being shine. I am broken …. I am in need of a Savior …. I’m no better than anyone else.

  • http://castingthenet.net pastorheathj85

    Hulk,

    Just know that God accepts me and I have lots of faults. I then in turn accept you.

  • Anita Soler

    Hulk – have you read the book, The Ragamuffin Gospel by Brennan Manning? It is a message that will speak directly to your words: “I really want Christ. I really want him to hold me, but 31 years in a system that rewards performance, striving and recognition has totally confused me. I struggle trying to understand grace as a result.”

    It helped me greatly in this area. I am so sorry that you were rejected. And those “sinners” that rallied round you when you were down and out? Don’t ever underestimate the power of Christ to show his love in the most “undignified” way. He will get His love to us however He can…He will even use people the church has deemed outcasts. I am so grateful they were there for you when the Pharisees were not…this only proves that Christ is determined to pursue you and love you. Keep reaching out for Him.

  • http://twitter.com/jskogerboe jskogerboe

    Hulk, I’d rather talk to you face to face. I’m an imperfect guy. My words won’t be exactly right. But I could choose to love you, and get to know you, in that order. We’ve all made mistakes, and Jesus has the power to forgive all of it. I don’t know what happened in your last church, but it seems to me that what you are so deeply bothered by is the humanity inside the people inside the church.

    I think you may be wrong about church. Not wrong about your experience – I’ll never say that. I’m just saying that inside the imperfect people inside the imperfect churches around us is a perfect Jesus. He represents deep, overwhelming love. The judgement of people – that’s not our business. But Christians are all a messy mix of yucky humanity and beautiful that comes from God. The balance of the mix varies from person to person.

    I do not understand your visceral response to the idea that Jesus would not want us to grow/change/heal, though. He is a Redeemer and brings new life. Why is it a hypocritical or judgemental statement to say we believe Jesus wants us to grow/heal/change? To change our mix… less yucky and more beautiful? Yep – we’re all on different paths, and all of us take backwards steps as we go. ALL of us. But what’s wrong with the church encouraging CHANGE in people?

    I hope you hear this as an honest question from a guy who wants you to experience all the depth of Jesus’ love for you. (1) I recognize your pain, and I’d rather talk with you face to face about it. (2) The church people will let you down every time if you expect them to be either broadcasting every sin (unrealistic) or flawless in their faith (impossible). And (3) help me understand why it is such an insult to hear the church voice a belief that God wants us to grow/change/heal.

    At the end of the day, Jesus is what/Who you need. But I really do believe that this one life we get is even BETTER when we live it together with other believers in a local church. God bless, Hulk. I really wish and will pray for the very best for you.

  • http://castingthenet.net pastorheathj85

    Amen jskogerboe!

  • http://Yahoo?Don'tcompletelyunderstandthis. Debra Vlasak

    I too can feel your hurt Hulk and I don’t have all the answers but I know the one that does. When we look within ourselves for answers we can become disillusioned and sad and when we look to others for answers we are sometimes disappointed more often than not. But when you diligently seek out God and Christ and pour your heart out, He’s not going to let you down. I don’t attend a denominational religion church. I get together twice a week with people who are likeminded like myself and study God’s word and we teach each other. Jeremiah 17:5 says Thus sayeth the Lord, Cursedbe the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. Sometimes I think we want acceptance so badly from people we neglect what we really need and that is the acceptance that only God and Christ can give. I need the family of God to keep me sharp, to share with, and to love me. But if I didn’t have that I know that I know that I know that I have a loveing Heavenly Father who will never leave or forsake me and that He loved me enough to sacrifice His only son for me, and He did the same for you. I’ll be praying for you.

  • Hulk

    Jskogerboe, I don’t think you can truly see what I am saying. There is nothing wrong with encouraging change, as long as I/we can see change.

    The church is great at encouraging change (talk), the church doesn’t change (walk).
    Don’t you think it strange that those people around me who were ‘filled with the spirit’, who, spend time in prayer and worship, who talk about agape and being open to hearing the holy spirit did not lift one finger to help someone in my position?

    I find that very strange. It says something about their religion that they pretnd brings change. It is evidence that it is pharisaical. I can’t see what this system actually does and can imagine that this must be how the Pharisees were in Jesus’ time.

    Before you say, get your eyes off the people and look to Jesus, I would simply respond by saying that these people, purportedly, have their eyes fixed on him, their minds on godly things, holy, changing. But if you watch them you will see that what they talk about is not evident in their lives.

    Don’t you think it odd that people who don’t know Christ actually know how to accept people for who they are and love them anyway? And the ‘church’?, to busy looking at Jesus and encouraging change.

    I totally get that this world is full of yukky, messed up people. I’m one of them. I don’t think the church does though. They fail to see that they are just like us, only they are numb, uncaring and of no practical use – good at talking about change though.

  • Megge

    Hulk,

    I totally agree with you! I would not be going to church if it was not so important to him. I can hear a great message and then walk into the lobby and see staff acting a fool people being ignored and lies going on! Really ruins the message! I have leatned though Christ is not religon He is a lifestyle that does not fit in the modern church! I like the relationship a lot better! Church today is useless! You may have given up on church but don’t give up on Christ!

  • http://twitter.com/jskogerboe jskogerboe

    Hulk and Megge, sorry I didn’t get back to you yesterday. I think you’re both missing out. That’s not meant to be a jugemental statement at all. More like, “Oh man! I love it in here! I want you guys to get in on this! It’s SO GOOD!”

    Hulk, you said, “I totally get that this world is full of yukky, messed up people. I’m one of them. I don’t think the church does though…” And Megge, you said, “Church today is useless!”

    I don’t doubt for a minute that you both have seen hypocritical behavior that left a (really) bad taste in your mouth for church. But don’t you think it’s possible that you are therefore painting all churches with the same broad brush?

    Maybe you haven’t found a church family that fits you well. I understand that. Choosing a church is like choosing a family. Not easy. But with all of her flaws, the church that (honestly) seeks to love God more deeply all the time and (honestly) wants to love people deeply with a sacrificial love – there’s just nothing like it on earth.

    It can be a support system like no other. A place of encouragement like no other. It can give you purpose and a sense of TEAM like nothing on the planet. The church can be wonderful, even with weirdos, hypocrites, and posers in the mix. To some degree or another, I guess you need to count me as all of those. :-)

    Not all of my church experiences have been rosy. There’s yuck in EVERY church. But Jesus gave us the church to be a family. It’s His plan. When you decide to “follow Jesus, but reject the church” you’re missing out.

    One last thought – again, I’m not judging either of you. I honestly want the best life for you, so this is meant to be an ENCOURAGEMENT not to give up on church! Here it is… Jesus calls the Church His “Bride.” She is flawed, but He loves her more deeply thanh any husband has ever loved a bride in the history of love.

    If you tell me, “Joshua, I can hang out with you… but I don’t want anything to do with Amy (my wife). I don’t like what I’ve seen from her so far. So I’ll take you, but not her…” Well, you’re not sharing my heart. You’re not connecting with what matters most to me, therfore our relationship is limited. Does that make sense?

    God bless you both. Hope in the course of life you can fall in love with Jesus’ bride, and in the process find you may love Him even more.

  • Hulk

    Hi Jskogerboe,

    I appreciate your sincerity. As I’ve said, I’ve spent 31 years in churches. I have been in Pentecostal, Salvation Army, tried Catholic and Anglican too. It’s not localised to any one denomination.

    I have ‘tasted and seen’ that the ‘church’ is bad. All denominations are full of meaningless ritual.

    If you’ve ever read about utopias, you’ll see from history that they’re an ideal that starts with great intentions, but they always fail. Every church has utopian ideals, every church is destined to fail because it does not deal or allow people to live openly and honestly.

    Believe me, after 31 years in and 5 years out I really can’t think of one benefit of ‘fellowshipping’ in a local church.

    As for a place of encouragement, that I strongly disagree with. As mentioned before, the encouragement is superficial. It is not based on being real with where you are at, it is about wearing church masks. You cannot get true healing and encouragement without being honest with where you are at and loved through it, however long that takes.

    If you are in leadership and are drinking behind the scenes to cope, or thinking about all the beautiful women around you, or a compulsive gambler, or swear a lot, or love watching porn and masturbating etc. etc. you cannot afford to be honest with the people in the flock or the culture will judge you, stand you down and shame you.

    I have seen this happen to people on multiple occasions. That’s the ‘church’ way. But what does this line of ‘discipline’ actually teach? Not grace, nor acceptance of the person where they are at.

    It rewards dishonesty and performance, cover-up, pretense, lies. It’s ironic, but those that seek truth must do so behind a wall of lies!

    As long as nobody knows the real you, you can continue in the group without fear. But heaven help you if all of a sudden they see you for who you are — the struggles you battle with NOW. Believe me, they cannot cope.

    I really don’t believe that this is what Christ died to create. I cannot see that he would encourage people in their lifestyle and community of dishonesty for the sake or portraying ‘holiness’.

    I liked the post Thomas made on my first ever post that started this whole thing. He’s honest with where he’s at, the people around him seem honest too. It’s from this sharing of brokeness that they can find connection and TRUE encouragement. WHY? Because nobody is pretending. They understand that even with Christ we’re all in this together. We all struggle with the same things. We all need each other.

    Grace and forgiveness can truly be felt when you are honest. Communities full of grace are communities that can share each others brokeness and failures. There is no escaping that.

    I have never experienced that in any church and I am under no illusion that I ever will.

    If you love being in that, good luck to you. If ever you find yourself rejected, like I did. You can come crying to me. I will completely understand and accept you where you are at.

    You don’t need to pretend around me. I know you are broken inside, like me.

  • http://ricardo33ad.blogspot.com/ Ricardo33AD

    Hulk, I wonder what you’d say to the hurting people (in my church) who CAN celebrate bein loved thru rough times. Me for example.

    My mask fell off 7 or 8 yrs ago and I got entangled in sin. Openly and honestly I was disciplined with accountability but still loved, and restored. I do the same mostly for young adult guys now. I love that you want Christ and want his people to be real. But not all christians fail in the love department.

    My church family never ostracized or deserted me.

    They rallied around me, not just when I fell, but also thru medical crises, depression, financial shortfalls, and loneliness. Every step they are WITH me…unless I pushed them away. Which I did/do sometimes.

    With our masks at our feet, can you “look me in the eye” and say you honestly even give anyone a chance to be the church to you WITHOUT pushing them away under the cloud of your negative expectations?

    Do you extend the grace/acceptance YOU desire in return. If you know YOU are far from perfect do you give other christians the same benefit to be flawed? (NOT condemning/judging them) you want them to give you? who says their flaws have to ones you can live with?

    Being hurt doesn’t give anyone the right to hold a grudge.
    Angry, yes. Cautious, yes. Wary, jaded, frustrated even, yes.

    Negative and condemning, no.

    My challenge is to YOU is to have some of the grace and care you want FROM christians FOR christians first. Their responsibility to be loving is NO GREATER… and NO LESS than yours.

    Sometimes they get it right and that HAS to be acknowledged. Christ is still in there workin thru a small courageous, faithful, and dependent (on HIM only) remnant.

    We men can react pretty strongly and neither forgiveness nor mercy are naturally our strong suits…except for Christ in us. My hope is that your venting is authentic but not a sign of rejecting all christians corporately as love-failures.

    You can’t authentically love Christ and be in His family, without LOVING His family.

    Grace and Peace,
    Hurting Guy the Church did NOT fail.

  • Hulk

    Ricardo33AD,

    if that’s TRULY your experience well I’m very happy for you. Maybe there are a very, very, very, very few ‘true’ Christians out there? Maybe.

    I find it interesting though that they ‘disciplined’ you. Don’t you think it’s true that it is life who ‘disciplines’ you? Is it not the pain and sense of failure that you experience that teaches you? Why do you need to have ‘the church’ do this?

    In my experience, Pharisees love control. As long as you play by their rules and do what they say they will show you ‘love’. Cults operate the same way, they reward behaviour they like and quickly cut the ‘love’ when somebody does something wrong. They don’t even need to say a word.

    The fact that you capitulated to their ‘discipline’ makes me wonder if you did receive love. Would you have received ‘love’ if you had not let them discipline you?? Because, after all, ‘love’ never fails! ‘Love’ is not dependant on performance.

    There’s never a reason for it not to work, not to be given out. Would they have loved you even if you made it hard and kept rejecting them? ‘love’ never fails…

    I understand what you are saying. Can I extend ‘grace’ to those christians around me? Yes! I’m here for when they fall. That’s the only time you get access to the real person — when they’re broken. Grace cannot penetrate pretense, it can be there for it, but grace can’t be accessed until honesty comes in to play.

    ‘Being hurt doesn’t give anyone the right to hold a grudge’? I think being angry at this totally useless system is perfectly justified. It is a system that claims one thing and delivers another — false. I thought people that ‘follow’ Christ were meant to point out injustice?

    I don’t love the system you’re in…I HATE IT! And I hate when people try to defend this new-pharisaical community and try to dress it up as being what Christ wants.

    Anger points out weakness, anger can appear ‘negative’, especially when it comes in with a whip and turns over tables! What a party-pooper! You see me as being negative? No, I’M ANGRY…i thought my name gave it away?

    After my pain, I am a better man now. It has given me a lot of compassion for people that have been trampled by the Pharisees.

    You say: “We men can react pretty strongly and neither forgiveness nor mercy are naturally our strong suits…except for Christ in us. My hope is that your venting is authentic but not a sign of rejecting all christians corporately as love-failures…You can’t authentically love Christ and be in His family, without LOVING His family”

    Poppy-cock! WHO are his FAMILY? How do I recognise them??
    Surely they’re not the ones who talk a lot? Who says I can’t love Christ without loving his family? is this how they keep you in church? Through guilt?

    I totally take up your meaningless statement …except for Christ in us.
    What does that even mean. Isn’t he meant to make a difference? I knew in excess of 3000+ ‘believers’, ‘followers of christ’. I had so many ‘Godly friends’. I bet you even sing some of the songs…NOT ONE has ever reached out to me…please explain how ‘christ in us’ makes a difference?

    I’m an ex-church-veteran. I can see through your disguise. You are empty.

    This is my last post on this…I have wasted so much time, I won’t be responding anymore. It has accomplished nothing. It hasn’t given me anything new…I knew it was a fruitless exercise from the beginning. But the poem was so true!

  • http://www.ChurchTechy.com stubbyd

    I’m with Hulk in this, but with one difference – I’m still in this hollow man made construct of ours.

    My issue at present is that I don’t know why I’m in it. And there is a climax coming that may cause me to finally walk away from it.

    Ever since I became a christian in 1982 I have been open and honest with all I meet – mostly to my detriment. But I believed then and do now that this is the only way we should be.

    I also thought that by being open and honest it would get others to be the same but it hasn’t and I almost daily see the same responses that caused Hulk to abandon going to church – and I say that without judgement.

    Even I fail and I will continue to admit my failures even though that isn’t normal or politically right to do so.

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